The Next Stop: METRO's Podcast
Episode 64:ÊIntegrating Autonomous Vehicles into Public Transit


Kim Williams:  Once we get that feedback, once we know what peopleÕs concerns and questions are, we can continue to evolve and grow.   

Doug Delony:  IÕm Doug Delony. On this edition of the Next Stop, METROÕs Office of Innovation is planning for the future of public transit.  

[Introduction music plays]

Doug Delony:  Today, on the Next Stop, we welcome Kim Williams. She is METROÕs Chief Innovation Officer. Welcome, Kim!  

Kim Williams:  Thank you so much, Doug! I really appreciate being on the show today.  

Doug Delony:  No, I appreciate you taking the time to be with us, and you head up whatÕs called the ÒOffice of Innovation.Ó What exactly is that?  

Kim Williams:  It is actually one of our newest departments at METRO. And what we are designed to do is to look ahead at the future and make sure that the products and services that we provide our riders is state of the art. That we are looking ahead to the future and looking at all the new technology and different mobility options and looking at ways to integrate them into METROÕs service. And so, I see us as a strategic planning, strategic development arm for the agency, and weÕve been able to do some really impactful projects from bringing WiFi to the fleet through our Assessing and Demonstration Program. And now our latest project, which we are talking about today.  

Doug Delony:  And that is METRO Future Link. ThatÕs something big that your office has been working on for quite a while. We hear a lot about driverless cars these days from TeslaÕs Autopilots to various rideshare services also testing out their versions of driving features or assisted driving features or driverless cars. All these kinds of things we hear about. All testing the waters. I guess it would be kind of foolish for METRO to not look to the future as well, and also, test those waters.  

Kim Williams:  That is absolutely correct. And IÕll tell you our story with this really started when the U.S. Department of Transportation named Houston METRO as a part of a statewide initiative as a part of an autonomous vehicle proving ground. And the year after that, in 2017, the State of Texas then made it legal for autonomous vehicles to operate in the state. So, our first thought was these vehicles are coming. They will be in our environment, and we need to make sure that our operators and that our team is familiar with the technology, so they know how to interact with it, and any issues or concerns that we may have around it. Then we went to the next step and said, ÒYou know, maybe this could be of use in our system in some way.Ó And so, we started testing the vehicles themselves. So, itÕs been a journey, and we definitely want to make sure that we are exploring this. YouÕre starting to see them in general operation, whether it is your Tesla or whether thereÕs a robotaxi company in your area. So, it is very important that we keep up with this technology.  

Doug Delony:  Right. I know thereÕs various levels of driverless technology. You know, Tesla comes with its little, you know, warnings about this is not actuallyÑyou know, you still have to pay attention and look, you know, at the road and stay focused on whatÕs going on. And we say, ÒAutonomous vehicles.Ó A lot of times internally, you might hear or we might say ÒAV.Ó I always think ofÑI was an AV geek or nerd [laughs] in high school, so I think ÒAudio/Visual,Ó but this is ÒAutonomous VehiclesÓÑis what we call it, so AV is what we say. So, if we say ÒAVÓ throughout this podcast, thatÕs what weÕre talking about. Autonomous vehicles. And real quick, IÕm just going to throw this out there early on for anybody listening, just like we stress at our committee meetings:  WeÕre not talking about getting rid of METRO operators or METRO drivers. WeÕre not talking about vehicles operated by METRO where thereÕs nobody onboard at all. There will be someone from METRO on there. WeÕll get into that in a little bit, but I want to put that out there early because weÕre not talking about this as a way to replace people, which are extremely critical in their role here at METRO.  

Kim Williams:  Absolutely.  

Doug Delony:  We are focusing our AV effortsÑthough, at first, it was at the university level. I know we just wrapped up some testing at Texas Southern University, was it?   

Kim Williams:  Yes, we did. So, the way we developed this project is weÕreÑagain, itÕs a learning journey. And so, we wanted to understand everything about this technology and adapt it. I think someone at the Board meeting called a Òwalk, crawl, crawl, run.Ó  

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.  

Kim Williams:  And I may not have gotten that order right.  

Doug Delony:  [laughs]  

Kim Williams:  But to really understand the technology. And so, we developed a phased approach. And the first phase was operating an autonomous vehicle on a closed loop on the campus of Texas Southern University, which is a historically black college university located here in Houston. And we were also lucky to have an area that there is a lot of activity. ThereÕs a lot of users of the system. And thatÉ

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.  

Kim Williams:  Éfirst and last mile connection, which we were looking to evaluate, is in a very important part for them.  

Doug Delony:  And I imagine it being on a loop, it makes it a little bit easier for the technology as well because itÕs a predictable pattern. It knows this route. It sees it over and over again versus some of the challenges I would think being out on the street is somebody hailing a ride with another service, and itÕs got to follow a street that it may or may not have been on before, so I assume the loop makes the testing, especially this early on in the process, it makes the testing a little bit easier, right?  

Kim Williams:  Mm. It did. It did. We were very fortunate. We launched that service in June of 2019. It was very well received. We had over 7,000 successful trips. No incidences.  

Doug Delony:  Wow. Wow.   

Kim Williams:  The people loved it. When we surveyed people at the beginning, some were apprehensive, but once they had a chance toÉ  

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.   

Kim Williams:  Éexperience the vehicle, they loved it. And we had really high marks in terms of people feeling safe on the vehicle, about people willing to ride the vehicle, and to choose it as a public transit option. And so, thatÕs what motivated us to pursue the next phase, which weÕre in now, which is phase two.   

Doug Delony:  By the way, I have to mention this. IÕm a TSU graduate, so IÕm honored that you guys chose TSU to test this out.  

Kim Williams:  Yes.  

Doug Delony:  So, thatÕs awesome. I have to throw that out there because who doesnÕt, you know, say, ÒHey, I went to that school!Ó SoÉ[laughs].  

Kim Williams:  Yeah, we love TSU. TheyÕve been fantastic partners. And their Center for Transportation ResearchÉ  

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.   
 
Kim Williams:  Éis amazing.   

Doug Delony:  ThatÕs great. Now, letÕs talk about the actual technology with this test phase. I guess it was a smaller vehicle. You said 7,000 trips with this smaller vehicle. Can you describe the vehicle itself, and as part of this podcast, weÕll put the image of it in our feed, but obviously, people are just listening right now. So, how big was it? How many people could get inside it? Was there an operatorÉ  

Kim Williams:  Absolutely.  

Doug Delony:  Éor driver?  

Kim Williams:  So, we started with one of the early generations of autonomous vehicles that were on the market. And there were not a lot at that time. And so, we picked a company called EasyMile, whoÑthey had a vehicle called the ÒEasyMile Generation 2 Autonomous Vehicle.Ó It was a very compact vehicle, six sitting, six standing. It didnÕt operate at high speeds, but it was very effective in terms of being a circulator on campus at that time. While we had very successful experiences with it, we also recognized that as a public transit agency, we needed a little bit more. And when I say Òmore,Ó that more included a vehicle that was completely compliant with all the Federal requirements from the Americans with Disabilities Act to being able to operate on mixed roadways, as well as being compliant with the Buy America Act, which requires U.S. dollars to be used on products that have at least a high percentage of American-made parts or assembly.   

So, we recognized the original vehicle did not meet that standard, so we started thinking of how we could resolve some of those issues. And we basically decided to create our own vehicle, if you will, using different components. And so, what I mean by that is we found a base vehicle with a company called Phoenix Motorcars, and that base vehicle is a traditional transit vehicle that is fully compliant with all Federal requirements, is a vehicle that has been in production for many years, and is a proven vehicle in terms of the roadway network. And so, we took that vehicle and had it electrified, and then we partnered with an automation company called Perrone Robotics, who did the automation work. And now, that vehicle has been returned to us, and METRO will operate it. 

So, weÕre very excited because this vehicle is larger. It seats up to 12 people, and it has two areas for wheelchair securement. It also has the wheelchair lift, so you can have that comfortable and safe level boarding for someone with a mobility challenge. And so, weÕre really excited to be bringing this vehicle to the conversation around autonomy. We will always have an operator on board, and we donÕt expect to change that any time soon. This is an understanding that the operator has a very critical role in any type of public transit operations in addition to driving the vehicle. So, this is a way to support the operator in that effort.   

Doug Delony:  They can focus their efforts in other ways. I know, you know, keeping an eye on the passengers. And going back to ADA compliance, we help people who may need assistance getting on the vehicle. Maybe their wheelchair or whatever theyÕre sitting on needs to be strapped down and whatnot. So, really want to drive that home. WeÕre not talking about someone getting in the vehicle, and thereÕs nobody from METRO there because, you know, thatÕs notÑour priority is stillÉ.And speaking of the ADAÉ  

Kim Williams:  Right.   

Doug Delony:  Éthe ADA has always been a huge priority for METRO. And sometimes, if not often, going beyond what the ADA even requires by law. So, you donÕt surprise me when you say that we went for a larger vehicle that is ADA compliant because all of our vehicles are accessible. This is about providing a service that everyone can use whether they are getting around on foot or not. And I know weÕre not doing this without any help.   

Kim Williams:  Absolutely.   

Doug Delony:  For one thing I know that a while back, the Federal Transit Administration even awarded METRO with a grant back in 2021, specifically for autonomous vehicles. Is that right? And what other groups or companies are involved in our efforts?   

Kim Williams:  Yes, thatÕs absolutely correct. The Federal Transit Administration has been a very strong partner and supporter of what weÕre doing. We would not be able to do this project without their support. So, in 2021, the Federal Transit Administration put out a call for proposals for a program they called ÒAccelerating Innovative Mobility.Ó And they were looking for projects that pushed the envelope in terms of what vehicles and technology were available. So, we put a proposal together, as I mentioned, with this fully compliant transit vehicle, and we also partnered with Perrone Robotics to do the automation of that vehicle. And Phoenix Motorcars provided the base vehicle, and they are a longstanding transit vehicle company that has been in this space for a long time. We also have STV, which is an engineering company that is helping us manage the integration of the technology with the traditional vehicle. And then we also have Transcend, which is a local Houston-based small business that weÕre excited to have on the team. But as I mentioned, without the Federal Transit Administration, we would not have been able to move forward with this project. And one of the things that the FTAÑthe Federal Transit AdministrationÑsaid they liked about the project is not just the technology but the area in which weÕre operating in. We specifically selected an area that many would consider to be underserved or challenged.   

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.  

Kim Williams:  ItÕs actually one of the City of HoustonÕs, what they call a ÒComplete Community,Ó which is actually a community that the City has identified as a community that has not received the level of investment that it should have. And so, weÕre very excited to bring this technology to this area of Third Ward of Houston, Texas. As many people know, itÕs the home of Beyonce.   

Doug Delony:  [laughs] 

Kim Williams:  But also to be able to partner with Texas Southern University, which is an HBCU in the same area, and with their Center for Transportation Research and Training, weÕre also giving this opportunity for the next generation of students, of innovators, to get on the ground floor of this technology. And so, weÕre really excited about that.   

Doug Delony:  And, you know, talking about the underserved community, thatÕs one of the reasons, I believe, that METRO chose for the BOOST Corridor. One of those corridors, one of those routes getting all those improved bus stops, those improved bus shelters, better lighting, with live digital screens with updates on the transit times. The 54, which runs right through the heart of Third Ward and is a frequent service during rush hour. I think itÕs like every ten minutes. IÕm a big fan of the 54.  

Kim Williams:  Mm-hmm.  

Doug Delony:  I use it frequently. And thatÕs just one of the other ways, I guess, is the AV vehicle in which METROÕs looking to improveÑmake improvements in our community. So, after this testing at Texas Southern UniversityÑyou know that just wrapped up at the time that weÕre recording this podcast, here it is October 2023.  

Kim Williams:  Mm-hmm.   

Doug Delony:  What is the future of our autonomous vehicles in testing or in service? WhatÕs the potential here? What do you see?   

Kim Williams:  ThereÕs a lot of potential. So, when we first started, as I mentioned, in 2016 when we received the designation as part of an autonomous vehicle proving ground, this was technology that people were saying was way off in the future. ÒWe donÕt think itÕll happen.Ó And now, flashforward, when you look at whatÕs going on in the communities where youÕre starting to see more of this technology embedded in our personal passenger vehicles, and I know other cities are experiencing this. But Houston is just receiving its first set of robotaxis by another company that will be autonomous operated. And then, weÕve had Nuro, which is the grocery delivery autonomy company here for a couple of years now. 

So, the technology is here. ItÕs happening. And so, where does METRO fit into that? Our vehicle will be one of the first in the country to move into mixed traffic carrying passengers in a first and last-mile service connecting public transit. And weÕre very excited and proud about that. Once we continue this phase of testing, weÕre looking to hopefully bring more of these vehicles onto the service. And thatÕs one of the reasons weÕre branding this ÒMETRO Future LinkÓ because we do definitely see a future for these in our service. 

Doug Delony:  What do you tell people who are skeptical about this technology? I know thatÕs something that we have to go through a lot when it comes to new technologies in transit or not. People who just say, ÒThatÕll never work.Ó That phrase, right there, ÒOh, thatÕs not gonna happen. ThatÕll never work.Ó What do you say to them?  

Kim Williams:  I say to them is when you think about the times where that has been said in the past. I use the elevator as a prime example. When elevators first came out, people said the same thing, said, ÒIÕll never get on it. IÕll never ride it. ItÕs not safe. ItÕs not sustainable. It wonÕt work.Ó And look where we are today. [laughs] You wouldnÕt go intoÉ

Doug Delony:  Right. [laughs]  

Kim Williams:  Éa building without an elevator. And so, this is one of the tough things about technology. What I say to people is, ÒGive it a chance.Ó There have been many times in our history where we have seen technologies come, and thereÕs been skepticism. And skepticism is good. I think itÕs good to be skeptical because I think that makes the technology and innovation even better. Once we get that feedback, once we know what peopleÕs concerns and questions are, we can continue to evolve and grow. A good example is the phase one of our project. People said, ÒHey, we like it, but we need it to be fully accessible. We like it, but we wish it were larger. We like it, but, you know, we want it to be able to move faster. Like, if I can walk faster than the vehicle, itÕs not really helping me.Ó   

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.  

Kim Williams:  And thatÕs a lot of the earlier vehicles were those slower speeds, but now people are saying, ÒHey, we want more from these vehicles.Ó And I think once they see how they operate, once people get used to them, it will become normal. And thereÕs so many thingsÉ  

Doug Delony:  Yeah. 

Kim Williams:  Éout there. Even today, when you look at your carsÑsmart parking, lane keeping, lane departure technologyÉ

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.   

Kim Williams:  Éadaptive cruise control. ThatÕs all a form of automation.   

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.   

Kim Williams:  ThatÕs all a form of self-driving. So, these things are not new.   

Doug Delony:  I like your analogy better with the elevators versus mine. Mine was alwaysÑmy argument was always, like, look at red lights. IÕm sure at a point when intersections came out with the lights, people thought, ÒThis will never work. IÕm not trusting a little red light or a green light to tell me whether to go or stop and put my life at risk. WhereÕs the police officer who used to stand here with a sign and say, ÔGo or not.ÕÓ And now, itÕs just completely normal. 

But I like your elevator analogy much better. I think your point, too, about itÕs good to be skeptical is good. But thereÕs a fine line between that and just always saying, ÒNo. Change nothing. Do it the way it always has been done. ThereÕs nothing better coming out. ItÕs not gonna work.Ó Those kind of peopleÑthey donÕt resonateÑit does not do well with me. There was the Commissioner of the Patent Office. The Commissioner of the U.S. Patent Office in the late 1800s, I forget his name, he wanted to close the patent office down because, at that point in the late 1800s in the United States of America, he said, ÒThat everything that had been invented had already been invented.Ó That was it. We were wrapping up. ThereÕs not gonna be anything better to come along.   

Kim Williams:  Mm-mmm. 

Doug Delony:  And look how far weÕve come since that. He would probably be mind-blown that weÕve been to the moon. So, I think itÕsÉ

Kim Williams:  ThatÕs interesting. 

Doug Delony:  ÉI think itÕs very, I think when someone says, ÒThatÕll never work. ThatÕs never going to happen.Ó They really should stop and take a hard look back at everything that is happening. Okay, IÕm gonna get off my soapbox. IÕll get offÉ[laughs]ÉIÕll get off my soapbox.   

Kim Williams:  No, youÕre fine. I do have to tell oneÉ  

Doug Delony:  Uh-huh. 

Kim Williams:  Élittle funny story.   

Doug Delony:  Yes. 

Kim Williams:  I posted a few months ago on my LinkedIn page about a news segment on a Burger King that had adopted credit cards.   

Doug Delony:  Yes. 

Kim Williams:  And everyoneÑthey interviewed the people in the restaurant, and they said, ÒWhy would anyone in the world use a credit card to buy a burger?Ó   

Doug Delony:  [laughs]  

Kim Williams:  And look where we are today. I mean, weÕre tapping our cards. WeÕre using our phones to purchase things.   

Doug Delony:  Mm-hmm.   

Kim Williams:  So, even then, they were saying, ÒOh, itÕs not gonna happen. ItÕll never happen. This wonÕt work.Ó And here we are. ItÕs working just fine, and everyone has adapted to it. And the technology is functioning very, very well. So, youÕre right. We do have to be really careful about the things you say, ÒOh, thatÕll never happen.Ó Because the future is coming whether we are ready for it or whether we want it. ItÕs coming. And once you start to see it in the marketplace, itÕs just a matter of time.   

Doug Delony:  Change is sometimes hard to accept, and I get that. ItÕs hard to look at something that can be frightening for some people to change, and so, I totally get that. But I like for everyone to keep an open mind.   

Kim Williams:  Well, I would just say that safety is always our number one priority. We would never do anything that would compromise the safety and security of our customers. So I want people to know as we look at this technology and this innovation, weÕre very intentional about not being caught up in the newest gadget or the coolest thingamajiggy, right? WeÕre very intentional about making sure that the innovation that we look at really has a value add to our customers. So, when you look at autonomous vehicles, for example, itÕs not just about having this interesting vehicle, but itÕs about how do we improve first and last-mile connections out of neighborhoods to public transit.   

Is this a service that can be used in smaller areas that may not have the infrastructure for a fixed route? Is this the technology that can help us provide nighttime service? Is this a technology that can help us do more Curb2Curb community connectors? So, we always think about the person who will ultimately use it and how it will be of the highest and best value for them. So, when weÕre looking at this technology just know that weÕre looking at this for the best benefit for you, and we really want you to be engaged with us. DonÕt just say, ÒNo. IÕll never. I wonÕt try it.Ó We really need to hear from you what you think, what your experience is, whatÕs good about it, what you would like to see different about it. And we can only do that if you are at the table. So, that is what I would just ask of people as we look at these different approaches, is that ultimately it is for you, and so we really need you to be engaged.   

Doug Delony:  Right. ThatÕs great. That is so great. And itÕs so true as well. So, Kim Williams, thank you so much for joining us here on the Next Stop.   

Kim Williams:  And Doug, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And weÕre looking forward to joining you next time.   

Doug Delony:  That wraps it up for this edition. Thank you to you, the listener, and all of our METRO riders out there. As a reminder, you can reach METROÕs customer service team. You can call or even text message 713-635-4000. IÕm Doug Delony. If youÕd like to check out more episodes of the Next Stop podcast or subscribe, you can find all the links you need on ridemetro.org. As always, drive less and do more with Houston METRO.  

[Music plays to the end]   
 

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